DEAR DR. NERDLOVE: This is not a relationship question in the usual sense, but I´ve been reading along for a while now and I think you still may be the right address for this concern, so to speak. Long story short, my brother´s been making increasingly strange comments when it comes to feminism and the like, and I´m getting quite concerned. We are, just for context, both in our mid-thirties and he´s active in the gaming scene, so I suspect that´s where he´s picking this stuff up, but I don´t know for sure and I can´t ask, because he won´t tolerate any criticism of his views.
It started with comments about female characters in movies and games and how they were badly written, but when you criticize that you get accused of being sexist. Not knowing most of them I didn´t really say anything to that, although he seemed oddly defensive about the topic and somehow male characters were never mentioned as badly written – which I dismissed as coincidence, and maybe it was. Then he came up with this 80/20 principle thing that 80 percent of women are dating only 20 percent of all men and that´s why men are disadvantaged when it comes to dating.
I, partially thanks to this blog, am well aware of the context of this statement and also why it´s nonsense, so it was a red flag for me, but when I tried to point out that a glance at marriage statistics alone would contradict this idea I was, unsurprisingly, shot down. Then there was an incident where he got quite heated about how Gamergate is taught at a Danish (?) university now as a right-wing harassment campaign, which according to him is “leftist ideology gone too far” and “all lies”. His source is basically that he saw it happen in real time and since he didn´t see any harassment it didn´t happen.
Which brings us to a couple of weeks ago, where he told me, in the middle of an argument about why women are naturally worse at sports, that sexism doesn´t really exist and it´s all solitary incidences by a few assholes. When I pointed out, albeit quite snappily (not proud of that) that maybe, as a woman, I had a slightly more accurate perception on how prevalent this problem is, he reacted quite insulted, because he has female friends and he is aware of the topic, but also, women often use sexism as an excuse for not engaging with constructive criticism.
This is its own set of problems, but my question is actually something else: Am I right to be concerned that he´s getting in some MRA/Incel s--t or similar? And if so, and assuming we still have some kind of relationship after this calms down, how do I handle that going forward? Because despite all of this, I like my brother and he is generally a very kind and thoughtful guy, so I really don´t want to lose him to the darker corners of the internet.
Thanks for reading,
Fighting against Windmills
DEAR FIGHTING AGAINST WINDMILLS: I think you’re justified in feeling concerned, FAW. The far right has long been sliding into any space where disaffected young men – men who very understandably feel lost or confused or frustrated or isolated – tend to gather and spend a lot of time, because they see it as prime ground for recruiting people to their cause. This is hardly the stuff of speculation or paranoid fantasy; leaving aside that this has been the MO of white supremacists since forever (see also: Blood In The Face), but people like Steve Bannon have openly talked about exploiting things like Gamergate as an entry for reaching an audience that was primed for messages that explained how the world was cheating them of everything they were due.
I’m admittedly a little bemused that he seems to be stuck on right-wing talking points that’re more than a decade old at this point (did he also complain about Anita Sarkeesian?), but then again, it’s not as though these are rational arguments. If you refuse to be distracted by the gish-gallop tactics and the attempts to change topics mid-discussion and insist on them getting into the nitty gritty of what they mean, it becomes clear very quickly that the arguments are the jingling keys of right-wing grievance grifting; it’s just enough to focus their attention without actually thinking too hard about it. It’s all argument by assertion without actual structure behind it; it’s all intended to make people on both sides angry and upset. For the proponents, the anger is to keep them motivated; for the people disputing it, the anger is to fluster and distract so they aren’t able to respond effectively.
In fact, that tends to be one of the more effective ways of shutting down the conversation; refuse to be distracted by the subject changes and insist on drilling down into the details and examples. The key is to not concede anything� – no concurring with “well, I’m sure we can agree that…” or “surely you can see that some of these claims have merit”. This is an attempt to shift the middle by appealing to people’s desire to be reasonable and to assume that the other side is arguing in good faith instead of regurgitating pre-chewed arguments that have less structural integrity than a soggy piece of toast. By not allowing the person to start by setting terms, you refuse to let them control the debate. It’s similar to a particular debate-bro “argument”, where a guy trying to force an argument about LGBTQ rights or economic stability is stymied when the other person simply rejects the entire premise that it’s a binary choice. Notice how the interlocutor gets flummoxed; he doesn’t have a meaningful argument if the other person doesn’t first agree to the underlying foundation that you can only have one or the other.
By not agreeing with even the initial premise or their framing, you force them to have to build the foundation of their argument from first principles rather than being able to pull a rhetorical ‘well, if you agree to this, then logically, you have to agree to this other thing”. Debate bros love to try to pull this because it plays into people’s desire to be, if not ideologically consistent, to at least seem like they’re coming to it from a reasoned position. If you don’t take the bait, you effectively remove their entire arsenal, They’re not arguing from a position they actually have thought out, they’re following a flow-chart and they’re lost without it.
Remember, that this is argument by assertion, without actual structure behind it. It’s all intended to make people on both sides angry and upset. For the proponents, the anger is to keep them motivated and keeping them on the “correct” side; for the people disputing it, the anger is to fluster and distract so they aren’t able to respond effectively. If you don’t get angry, it’s much harder to distract you. If they can get you to lose your cool, it becomes a lot easier to force you to have to defend the next assertion while you’re still trying to correct the previous one. So, as the saying goes: the only way to win is not to play. Or at least, not to play by their rules. Concede nothing, including the authority of the people he cites. If he makes a claim that a study says X or authority says Y, ask him to show you. He’s relying that you won’t actually check, so asking for proof throws him off his game. If he says “look it up”, then tell him “Well, I won’t know if it’s the one you mean, so why can’t you just show it to me?” Most of the time, the studies either don’t exist or don’t say what the person claims it says, so making him actually cite and show his sources takes away his appeal to authority, while also breaking his momentum.
Throwing them off their stride is actually important. By breaking the momentum and not playing the game they expect, you force them into discussions that they’re not prepared for. This is why it’s more effective if you play dumb, rather than responding with anger or heat. Much like how responding to racist or sexist jokes with “…I don’t get it” or “why is that funny?”, asking them to explain how women in games or movies are badly written forces them to actually defend their position. And once you can point out how those same complaints apply to men – the fact that Rey and Luke Skywalker follow the exact same character arc is a classic example – the argument almost always comes down to “well, because girl.” The same thing applies to why a character has to have a “reason” to be queer in a story but not to be straight; why does someone need a “reason” to have a particular sexuality at all if that sexuality isn’t directly relevant to the plot?
(The really fun part comes when you can trap them in the Thermian argument; all story ultimately comes down to choices the writer made and any in-universe justification is, likewise, down to the writer’s decisions, and so really they’re just arguing in defense of bad writing.)
Again, the key is to avoid veering into “making X argument means you’re sexist”, which is the reaction they want, and instead, just asking “but why is this a problem?” and “so why isn’t the reverse also true?”
These tactics apply to the whole “80/20” issue too. Don’t accept the validity of the claim in the first place and ask to see the actual source. Then proceed to ask questions about why this is a problem and why it only applies to women and not to men. After all, don’t men also choose who they want to date? Does your brother attempt to date every single woman he encounters, including ones he doesn’t find attractive? Would it be reasonable to say that he rejects 80% of the women he meets simply by not trying to date them in the first place? If the 80/20 thing were true, then what’s the solution? If women should be willing to give more men a chance, then doesn’t that mean he should be giving more women a chance?
You can even apply this “no, wait, I don’t understand, can you clarify it?” to his arguments about harassment. Why does he have to see it happen in front of him for it to be real? If harassment didn’t happen in GamerGate because he didn’t see any, does it then follow that all harassment only exists if he personally observes it? It reverses the rhetorical trap that the debate bros want to try to trick you into by forcing him to defend a patently absurd position. If he says ‘yes’, then the next question is “does this mean that all crime doesn’t exist unless you see it?”.
At the same time, however, you also want to appeal to his desire to seem reasonable; if he argues that women would call anything a man says that they disagree with sexist, you might make the point that as a rational and sensible person, wouldn’t he agree that if someone who isn’t affected by sexism makes an argument that something isn’t sexist, that this claim should fall under greater scrutiny and skepticism? If he says “no”, then again, ask why that’s the case and what his reasoning would be. Why would that be true but only in one direction?
Remember, they want you to leap to the “you’re sexist” part, so they can argue that you’re being unreasonable or just trying to shut the conversation down and/or proving their point. Then they have you on the defensive, which means they now control the framing of the argument. Not giving them that option and not giving them the fight they want and instead just needing more clarification leaves them punching into Jello. It’s the Argument Clinic gambit and it’s almost shocking how well it works.
As an aside: I highly recommend Medi Hasan’s “Win Every Argument” as a primer on how to have discussions like this in effective ways and without falling for particular debate tactics or making all too common mistakes, as well as how to de-escalate and defuse tension.
Now, I realize that I’m focusing a lot on the weakness of their arguments and the ways they try to lead you down certain rhetorical paths, and you don’t want them to control the framing of the discussion. But the point isn’t to out-argue your brother, simply because you aren’t going to debate him out of this cycle. It’s important to remember that you aren’t going to be able to reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into in the first place. They started from a place of emotion – often, but not always, aggrieved entitlement – and back-filled the reasoning from there.
Because this was an argument made from emotion, it tends to be an issue that’s pretty tightly connected to their sense of identity and often to in-group membership. Challenging them by saying “you’re wrong and here’s why,” tends to make them double down, simply because it’s a threat to their identity. As Dale Carnegie famously said: “You have made him feel inferior, you hurt his pride, insult his intelligence, his judgment, and his self-respect, and he’ll resent your triumph. That will make him strike back, but it will never make him want to change his mind. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
And to be clear: the folks who’re leading him down this path understand this. That’s part of why they want you to react with anger and to accuse him of being a bad person for precisely this reason. They want him to feel like the aggrieved one, so that he feels like he is right and to not think very hard about it. It’s much easier to let logic flaws go by when you are coming to a place of “I’m right and everyone else is unreasonably attacking me”. That sense of persecution helps put you in a mindset where you’re just not going to look too closely at what you’re actually arguing for.
You can, however, lead him to change his own mind, by leading him to the point where he has to actually ask questions about what he’s saying, what he believes and why. By forcing them to explain things and refusing to engage on their terms, they have to make the argument to themselves… which quickly tends to reveal the cracks and unfortunate questions that they don’t want to face.
After all, many – if not most – folks with bigoted views don’t like seeing themselves as bigots, which is why they are willing to accept even the flimsiest of covers that they can then pretend is a reasoned and sensible rationale. When you make them have to actually explain things without the short-cut of accepting their definitions or inferences or even the assertion that they’re just reasoning with you, it quickly becomes obvious that the ultimate argument is, well, bigotry. And because he is the one who brings himself to that conclusion, it’s far more effective. It won’t change his mind immediately, but it will plant the seed that can lead to that change in time.
A last thing to keep in mind that if this is a relationship you want to keep, then you want to have firm but fair boundaries. You want to strike the balance of making him feel that those beliefs are uncouth and unacceptable at best, while also giving him room to back down. The reason why a lot of people have a hard time leaving toxic situations – whether it be an abusive relationship or s--tty social communities like the incel community or QAnon or GamerGate – is because they’re afraid of the feeling of embarrassment and humiliation that they may have to face. This is one more reason why it’s important to avoid responding to the rage bait or calling him out as sexist or bigoted if you are going to discuss the topics. If he feels like there’s no way to back away from those views without some measure of grace and forgiveness, then he’s disincentivized from doing so. This is the opposite of what you want.
However, past a certain point, arguing, even when using some of guides I mention, is an act of frustration and futility that only serves to waste your time and energy. Which is part of the point; the people who spread these views want to grind you down until you don’t have the energy to respond any further. So simply refusing to engage becomes its own response. But as I said: if you want to keep a relationship with your brother, then there has to be a balance between behavior you won’t tolerate and reminding him that he’s still family and you’re there for him if and when he’s ready to back away from this bulls--t.
This can be a difficult stance to maintain, especially if he’s the sort who’s aggressive and evangelistic about it. But you can, for example, inform him that you will absolutely refuse to engage with him on those topics and will walk away from the conversation if brings them up, even vaguely. And then you have to be willing to do so – to literally walk away, hang up or otherwise end the interaction when he crosses that line.
If and when he’s ready to either listen or to let go of those beliefs, let him do so without commentary. That last part is critical. If he doesn’t feel like he has a way out that will allow him a measure of dignity, he won’t take it. Similarly, the last thing you want is to penalize him for the behavior you want to see. Saying “well, thank god you quit being stupid” or “it’s about time” is functionally slapping him for doing what you were asking for in the first place, and it’s more likely to discourage him from trying again than to teach him a lesson. It’s better to forgo having the last word and instead to reaffirm that you’re glad he’s back.
I understand how frustrating it can be. Believe me, I can understand the desire to beat him about the head and shoulders with the Chair Leg of Truth until you crack his skull enough to let reason back in. And I can absolutely relate to wanting to break down every argument so thoroughly that there is no universe in which he could pretend to have been correct. But a lot of those impulses are ultimately counterproductive if you want a chance to walk him back from the edge and keep him as your brother. Set boundaries, refuse to engage – either on his terms or at all – and give him room to back down with grace. Hopefully this will end up being an uncomfortable blip in an otherwise good relationship with him.
Good luck.
Please send your questions to Dr. NerdLove at his website (www.doctornerdlove.com/contact); or to his email, doc@doctornerdlove.com