life

Dinner Conversation Has a Size Limit

Miss Manners by by Judith Martin, Nicholas Ivor Martin and Jacobina Martin
by Judith Martin, Nicholas Ivor Martin and Jacobina Martin
Miss Manners | December 23rd, 2008

DEAR MISS MANNERS: At what size table is it appropriate for guests to have conversations with the people sitting next to them, and when should a host/hostess expect that the entire table will participate in one conversation?

I realize that there once were rules for this when dinner tables sat 12 to 24 people, and conversation changed sides with the courses, but with somewhat smaller dinners now, it often seems that guests don't know when or how best to participate. If it is a larger table (say, 10-plus), should guests feel hesitant in initiating conversation with the person next to him/her if there is an active discussion going on among others not so near?

Also, are sex, politics and religion still off-limits in polite dinner conversation?

GENTLE READER: You know what we call a table of 10 or more people when only one person talks at a time? Not a party -- a seminar. At a social event, six is about the maximum for sustaining a long general conversation.

Now, Miss Manners realizes that there will be times when one person at the table is overheard to say something so fascinating that everyone else stops to listen. Such as, "Mr. Gates was telling me how the economy can be fixed." Or "You'll never guess who I saw coming out of the Roadside Inn together."

Then, indeed, the conversation may be general for a while. But if it goes on too long, you are free to speak quietly to your dinner partner, although not -- unless you are like-minded old friends -- about sex, politics or religion. That is not a quaint prohibition. Such subjects as gay marriage, taxes and abortion have been known to explode otherwise pleasant dinner parties.

DEAR MISS MANNERS: When I was growing up, my mom would always point out women who were exposing their knees or elbows and mock them. She would say that those are the ugliest parts of the body and ridicule them. As a consequence, I was nearly 30 before I could even sport a tank top.

Though I think my body is fine and proportionate, I am still terribly self-conscious about it, especially my arms, which I think are more fat then the rest of me.

Well, I had to go and marry a lawyer, and there always seems to be a dressy event to attend. We are coming into cocktail-party season, and for years I have tried to avoid them like the plague. You always see women at these events in spaghetti straps or somehow exposing their shoulders and arms. I tend to keep covered in a jacket or cardigan.

I don't want to continue avoiding dressy occasions because of my shame about my body. Is it OK to continue covering up like this at dressy events, or am I calling more attention to myself by being so covered up? I also refuse to wear shoes that expose my feet too much, but that is a story for another time!

GENTLE READER: The background is all very interesting, but Miss Manners assures you that things are not so bad that a lady needs a psychological excuse to wear sleeves. Or, for that matter, no-peep shoes. You might do so simply because all those identical slip-dresses and spiky sandals that are not only exposing feet but killing them are getting to be a bore.

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life

Keep the Table Simple as a Good Example

Miss Manners by by Judith Martin, Nicholas Ivor Martin and Jacobina Martin
by Judith Martin, Nicholas Ivor Martin and Jacobina Martin
Miss Manners | December 21st, 2008

DEAR MISS MANNERS: Over the holidays, we will host several good friends for dinner and two acquaintances whom we would like to get to know better. While my dining table comfortably seats eight with regular place settings, it may be a little cramped with the extended tableware and stemware for the five-course dinner I am planning.

In addition to a regular five-piece place setting, the guests will each have an iced tea spoon, a cocktail fork, a steak knife, and dessert fork and spoon, plus accompanying extra china and stemware.

Rather than cram the table with everything at once, would it be appropriate to present each guest with the china, silverware and stemware for the appetizer and dessert courses just prior to service, clearing away these items as each guest finishes? Alternatively, I could serve the appetizer and dessert courses from my buffet sideboard.

The two acquaintances are a delightful young couple who admire our social group. This is an opportunity for us to serve as a good example for them in their future entertaining.

GENTLE READER: That is a reason for making sure that you do not overwhelm them. Miss Manners is all for big, festive, formal meals, but hopes that you will not be sending them away reeling from too much all at once and the challenge of "OK, top this!"

Therefore, etiquette has a rule that forbids issuing more than three forks and three knives to each diner at a time, with other tools supplied as needed. So much for people who claim to be bewildered by a vast choice of forks. They are just showing off.

As far as Miss Manners can puzzle out, your menu is: seafood cocktail, then (because you wouldn't follow that with a fish course) soup, a main course of steak, salad and dessert. All well and good. To the left of the plate would be (from outside in) the forks for the meat course and the salad course; to the right (outside in) the seafood fork nestling in the soup spoon, then the steak knife, with the dessert fork and spoon horizontally at the top of the place setting. Not an outlandish setting, but you could pare it down by bringing the seafood fork on that plate and the dessert service on each dessert plate.

You are probably not serving five wines, not if you value your dining room carpet. Yet taking glasses off the table is oddly off-putting, even if not directly associated with a bartender's saying, "OK, you've had enough."

Two wines would seem reasonable with your menu, a red with the steak and a white with the seafood, which those who get headaches from red could continue to drink if their glasses weren't snatched. So unless you are having a dessert wine, that is only three glasses, the third being for water.

Oh, yes, the iced tea. Miss Manners doesn't quite get that at a formal winter holiday dinner, but you know your guests. Couldn't you just have that ready to hand to anyone who asks, and let that person figure out where to put it?

But do, please, give that person a saucer, or a tiny spoon rest, on which to park the wet iced tea spoon. For the sake of your guests' peace of mind, as well as of your tablecloth. You want them to go away thinking, "What a pleasant way to dine," not "I thought we'd never finish."

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life

Silverware Sends Reader Into Spiral of Doubt

Miss Manners by by Judith Martin, Nicholas Ivor Martin and Jacobina Martin
by Judith Martin, Nicholas Ivor Martin and Jacobina Martin
Miss Manners | December 18th, 2008

DEAR MISS MANNERS: I am trying to collect a set of silverware, and I'm still confused because the names of pieces are not always the same. I keep seeing a "place" spoon (and occasionally a "place" fork and "place" knife that seem to be luncheon sized).

Unfortunately, "place" doesn't describe the spoon's purpose to me. In my pattern, there are advertised: a cream soup spoon, a place/oval soup spoon and a dessert/tear shaped soup spoon. I think that is one too many soups (not counting bullion and gumbo).

Is the "place" spoon really the dessert spoon? Does the soup spoon care if it has an oval or tear shaped bowl? Is buying silver making me obsessive compulsive?

I will not even ask about the cocktail/seafood fork/oyster fork /pickle/olive/lemon fork dilemma since they all look alike to me. As for the 5'o'clock spoon, or the "youth size" utensils, I thought Miss Manners had declared the age of inventing new silver pieces over.

GENTLE READER: Indeed. The key is the date at which Miss Manners declares a cut-off. On a bad day, she thinks that maybe 1797 would have been a good time, in which case any of us would be lucky to be issued a fork. Then again, she remembers all the fun she would be missing if the world were bereft of strawberry forks.

The so-called "place" pieces are a comparatively recent attempt at simplification. Between luncheon and dinner size, they are supposed to fit not only any time of day, but any course. As you may suspect, Miss Manners does not quite like them, but not because she wants to complicate people's lives and ruin their budgets.

Her objection is that they make it difficult to serve a meal with more than one course requiring a fork and knife. You can do it by buying double sets (or by running to the kitchen sink between courses), but it looks redundant. The old method, before the mid-19th-century proliferation of specialized utensils, was to have a small set (not only for luncheon service, but for fish courses and such) and a large set (for the main course).

There was also a large oval tablespoon that was used for clear soup served in soup plates, a round spoon used for cream soup served in soup cups, a smaller round spoon for bouillon, and a medium-sized oval spoon used for dessert. How's that for your peace of mind?

In any case, these distinctions have been largely lost, but Miss Manners would rather see the oval soup spoon used for dessert than the teaspoon.

DEAR MISS MANNERS: I have a sister that constantly sends birthday gifts, Christmas gifts, etc., early. By early, I mean, sometimes as much as two months in advance.

I find this rude and odd at the same time. When asking her why she does this, her answer is so that she does not forget, since she travels so often (does not have a traveling job).

I personally am just as offended in this as I am in her potentially being late or forgetting entirely. To me, it demonstrates her inconsiderate ways in not caring about the meaning behind a specific important event and or date. How would you propose dealing with this, and, is it "normal"?

GENTLE READER: It is normal, Miss Manners gathers from far more disgruntled letters than yours, to send presents late. Or to forget to send them at all. Or, as in your case, to quibble instead of being grateful.

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