DEAR MISS MANNERS: I just came from a meeting where I was absolutely aghast. I've been a part of many of this group's meetings, where about a dozen people sit in a circle in a member's home, but this time it was totally out of hand.

We had a guest speaker, an expert in many areas who has a slew of degrees and is capable of speaking on many issues. The group really likes him.

We've had guest speakers before, but I never realized how bad the group has become. People constantly jockeyed to dominate the conversation; they shouted; spoke two- and three- and four-at-a-time; spoke in shrill tones, screeching without taking a breath to prevent interruption; spoke 99 percent of the time on politics, recent history, ancient history, obscure trivia, but less than 1 percent related to the topics for which the group was formed (and which is one of the areas on which the speaker is an expert).

I tried to steer the conversation to a topic on which the speaker could comment, but he was drowned out by another person's diatribe. At one point, I noticed someone doing a crossword, another reading the paper for a while, and another cutting his toenails (being aided by his wife).

After two hours of sitting through this egocentricity, the speaker announced that he had another engagement. Shocked, the group wanted him to talk more, but he said he really had to go. The group members are like this all the time, and I think the speaker giving them two hours was more than being tolerant. What can be said to them? Have things degenerated like this everywhere?

GENTLE READER: Well, no, not everywhere, at least not to the extent you describe. Miss Manners believes that the wives of Members of Congress are not permitted on the floor to help clip their toenails while the house is in session.

Maybe she isn't paying close enough attention. Certainly she has seen all of the other behavior you mention. That example to the contrary, Miss Manners believes that your problem could be ameliorated by moving the chairs. Sitting in a circle encourages group discussion, which may often be desirable, but relegates an invited speaker to being an equal participant, with no larger a share of the conversation than anyone else. When there is a guest speaker, you should put two chairs at one end of the room facing the others, and a chairman with a gavel in the chair not occupied by the speaker. If that doesn't work, your group needs a sergeant-at-arms or a trip to a nail salon.

DEAR MISS MANNERS: My husband is always quoting proper etiquette for table manners and drives my son crazy with the "no elbows on the table" reminders. My husband then proceeds to lay his whole arm on the table. I think this looks worse than an elbow. Does the rule book say anything about whole arms being on the table?

GENTLE READER: Sure, but is your husband's arm missing an elbow? If not, Miss Manners believes that he has already said it himself.

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DEAR MISS MANNERS: I am a very shy, quiet person at work. My strong work ethic, upbringing and genetic makeup made me that way. However, it always seems like the most loud-mouthed person at various jobs I have had think it is necessary to point this out to me, and it is often done when other people are around.

I am always taken aback by the rudeness of pointing out something personal to me. It makes me feel intimidated and upset. Needless to say, I end up disliking that person and go out of my way to avoid any future contact.

This last time, a co-worker at a restaurant (we were giving her a going-away lunch) said to me, "It's nice you came. You're so quiet."

This time I did find words and said, "I'm just working hard, trying to impress the supervisor."

Was this a good answer, or should I have said something harsher? I'm a nice person, and I do converse with people at work when I feel it is appropriate. It's always the loudest and most talkative people who like to "insult" me. What if l said to them, "You're so loud!"

GENTLE READER: No, please don't call anyone "loud." Isn't your object to discourage the Rudeness Squad, whose mission is to embarrass people who are behaving well? Then why join them?

Miss Manners knows that you are not alone in assuming that rudeness is the only way to make a point. She finds this odd, however, because it has a low success rate. The effective way to deal with this would be to reply only with a silent smile, clearly pasted on in place of a reply, and then to turn and begin a nice quiet conversation with someone else.

DEAR MISS MANNERS: A young father dies after a yearlong illness, leaving a widow and very young child. Both parents have worked outside the home and have extended family. They are not poor, but not well-to-do. At the memorial service, the widow gives instructions in the program for contributions to a college fund for the child.

I do not wish to disappoint my friend, the widow, and she is apparently (well) aware of who has contributed and who has not; but how does one know how much to contribute? Is it based on degree of friendship and familiarity, my own economic circumstances or speculation about theirs or the child's, or some other indicator? Please help.

GENTLE READER: Where do people get the impression that Miss Manners is in charge of billing for the events of life -- declaring that so much is owed for a birthday, so much for a graduation, a wedding, and, in this case, a death?

She wants no part of it. Kind as it is to help out those in need, or in want, there is no etiquette requirement to pay one's friends. Nor should they be asking, although in sad cases, an intimate of the family might discreetly issue an appeal on their behalf.

Miss Manners does not want to discourage you from helping educate those orphans if you wish. How much you give should then be calculated as sensible people calculate other charitable donations --according to what they can manage, what they believe is needed and how deeply they are touched, and not according to what the recipient hoped to get from you.

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DEAR MISS MANNERS: This may be more of a moral issue than one of etiquette: As an upstanding and dignified woman in my 60s, I find it most inappropriate that men (my husband of 40 years among them) think it acceptable and the "norm" to have what I would define as one-on-one "dates" with younger, unmarried women.

Apparently some of my friends' husbands think little of calling up another woman (preferably young and unmarried, someone they may have met previously in a business context) when alone on travel in another city, to join them for dinner. My husband will be out of the country on business soon and mentioned that he might "get together" with a young, unmarried woman who used to work for his company -- but who now lives in the city he will be visiting.

I don't ever recall seeing such behavior mentioned as part of good breeding in any etiquette books! Has something changed in our present-day world of social etiquette, and I missed it? (Is it under a revised chapter entitled "Manners for Old Married Geezers Dating Young Unmarried Chicks"?)

GENTLE READER: Just a guess, but if your husband is up to no good, he is not going to be deterred by Miss Manners tsk-tsking at him. Etiquette fell out of the chaperonage business for that reason (that reason and the late hours).

There is a deeper reason, as well. The blanket assumption, as it were, that there could be only one motive for members of opposite genders to dine together perpetrated tremendous social injustices.

No, Miss Manners is not defending the old geezer, if that is what he is, and you know him better than she does. But neither will she be a party to the outrageous assumption that two business associates who share a meal, or two friends for that matter, can only be on a romantic date if one of them is female.

DEAR MISS MANNERS: At the baby shower of my sister's daughter-in-law, I was dismayed when the guest of honor's mother bypassed two other tables and took the floral centerpiece from ours to give to a departing guest. When leaving, would you have said or done anything to show your disapproval?

GENTLE READER: Such as what? "Unhand those posies, madam"?

Miss Manners has never cared for the intense interest in grabbing party leftovers, sometimes before the party is over. Removing flowers from the table while you were sitting at it would come under that band, but so would your assuming that they were yours to take home.

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